Vintage T-Shirt Forum & Community Authentication Appraisals

Hey dudes.

Good ol' grumpy vintage dealer 1223coo from Japan has claimed the Morrissey shirts I posted yesterday (http://www.defunkd.com/2010/06/26/morrissey/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) are "FAKE". Here's what he says:

Hi,again 3 Morrissey T-shirts of "1991" are ALL "FAKE" made now! As for the original shirt, the copyright of "1991" is surely written to the bottom of a print. I buy many T-shirts from you. Didn't you understand these as "FAKE"? You will not be professional supposing you do not understand. You should write the fact of "FAKE" on your BLOG!!! Thanks.

- 1223coo

Apparently my professionalism is on the line here....uh oh. 1223coo is a buyer that I have many times witnessed give negative feedback for "fake" shirts, if he's such an expert, why does he end up with "fakes" too?

But I don't think these are fake...and if they are it's NOT because lack of a copyright. After a scan of vintage Morrissey photo tees I noticed it's way more difficult to find one WITH a copyright...and that goes for any Smiths tees too. After going through eBay archives of hundreds I could only find TWO with a copyright...and that was one with a "Giant" brand (bottom) and it isn't the typical photo print style.

What do you guys think? Can you guys check your archives for white shirts with a square photo print? The notion that a copyright on a t-shirt is the end-all be-all of vintage indicators is ridiculous, this guy should know better.

JJ

Yeah, that guy's a caution... had a contretemps with him over a late-shipping shirt, early on in my adventures. Rattled me at the time... now I know better.

jimmyj wrote:...if he's such an expert, why does he end up with "fakes" too?

Good point Jimmy. 1223coo is not the expert he thinks he is.

Without actually inspecting the aforementioned t-shirts in person it would be presumptuous of him to make a 100% definitive statement regarding their authenticity.

Wouldn't it have been more professional of him as a fellow collector and seller to inquire politely if there was any provenance to your selection of Morrissey shirts, rather than assert his imagined authority?

Just sayin'.

JJ-
That boy seems to be a thorn in your side! That was bad, i know... but I'm with you, the copyright is in no way the be all end all of determining a fake or original. My rarest of rare shirts do not have them and are indeed originals. A lot of 80s punk bands made their shirts themselves in their basement, sans copyright. Now I'm not saying Morrissey is punk, but i have had a lot of his (and the smiths) shirts that were not fakes and did not have copyrights. That being said, there are a ton of Morrissey repros and i believe the ones pictured in the blog to be some of those...i think i can see a late 90s era screen stars tag.

I bought a "There is a light that never goes out" t shirt in '92 and guess what? I didn't have a copyright date printed anywhere on it! But that doesn't mean it was a fake. Tell that to Big Mouth when he strikes again!

1223coo = the only rude Japanese person I have ever encountered in my life. Take that!

Hey everyone -

Forgive me if we've covered this subject numerous times already but one more note worth mentioning on this topic:

"Fakes" vs. "Bootlegs"

I define a "fake" as a t-shirt that has been recently and purposely produced to mimic a true vintage piece and passed off to the buyer as real vintage. Sadly, eBay has seen it's fair share of sellers engaged in this activity.

A "bootleg" however is something different all together. Just because a shirt doesn't have a copyright date doesn't mean it isn't authentic vintage. I've seen some truly amazing pieces from the 70's, 80's and 90's that were definitely never licensed and merchandised by the owner of the copyrighted art, name, logo or image.

So when our Japanese friend refers to the Morrissey shirts in question as being "fake", I don't think that's an accurate statement at all. I'd be more inclined to say they are "bootlegs" from the 80's. Very collectible! Sometimes even more so. A perfect example: http://www.defunkd.com/2010/06/22/eagle-crossbones/ Final auction price was $455.00!

What do you guys think?

ha - and then there's fake bootlegs...nothing worse.

ALL "FAKE" made now!

I think he means they are modern day with the "made now!" statement.

1223coo scam me for about $430 just because i was blocked from ebay..make me hard to resolve my problem with paypal..maybe he think he is professional by doing that..however, he was a really daring and brave buyer, hard to find someone who could spend lot of money for t-shirt

dangerouslyclosetv.blogspot.com/2010/12/merry-christmas-mr-lawrence-cautionary.html

interesting story about 1223coo in the above link

i think he deserve a tittle as a SCAMMER!!!!

Hey sir, thank you very much for pointing this out - it prompted me to write an alert about him.

http://www.defunkd.com/2011/04/01/1223coo/