Defunkd

[zargosh]

I've gone down the rabbit hole with this stuff. Check this out, it's a 1999 cradle of filth / praise the whore long sleeve that's online for close to $500. At first glance the one for sale looked pretty detailed--until I compared it to one I found on t-shirt slayer. The difference seems pretty stark on all of it, but I think it's especially noticeable on the left arm artwork. I'll be interested to hear what you think.

[jimmyj]

Tough one to call - as it looks like most of the details are there - there's just a different tint. Arm prints are definitely different sizes and the one doesn't have the skin tone right. Usually, if fake I would expect it to be way more obvious in terms of the print - there's a lot of detail in that print and seems to all be there, color aside. So it could be a licensed reprint done years later. M&O Knits I thought to be early 2000s too. Does that one have the exact same copyright?

I emailed the company to see when they started. I used M&O Knits as a blank when I was printing tees for an event in 2010, so always thought it to be more modern-day, but gotta investigate.

[zargosh]

Yeah, that's what I thought too. The detail is pretty great on the crappier shirt (I think that's a fair term for it) - the text for the band name has all that nice shading on it, and there's a lot going on in the Egyptian stuff in the background. But then I was thrown by how vibrant and natural the other one looks, especially I think the arm artwork is so much more realistic looking tone-wise on the t-shirt slayer version.

So, I guess you don't really see variant color as a a red flag? It's just a different printer either less talented or just going for a different effect? It's similar to the thing with those two Danzigs that I posted.

I know with woodcuts and things like that, the prints degrade as the run continues, because the wood gets worn down. Along the same lines that if you keep recording analog audio over and over again on tape (who the hell is doing that anymore?), the sound quality is going to degrade. Is there anything like that with pre DTG shirt printing? I don't know enough about the processes of screen printing to know whether that's the case, but I'm assuming it isn't.

The copyrights look identical, although the t-shirt slayer one just had that image that I posted, so it's not super clear. Check it out

crappier version copyright

t-shirt slayer copyright

I'll be really interested to hear what M&O Knits responds about their start date. If you google M&O Knits 1997, you'll end up with a whole slew of Friday the 13th shirts at hefty prices. If you do the same thing with 1996, you get a similar deal with Nirvana shirts. Maybe those are all later date repros?

[jimmyj]

Def see it as a red flag, but it usually comes along with a loss of details too - and there's so much detail in that background that seems to match up - colors can vary when a shirt is printed at different locations, a different run printed later. This is a detailed print. The detail on the arm isn't as sharp but maybe in the second batch, reissue, they cheaped out on color that lends the vibrancy to the first one.

It's also a pain in the butt for a counterfeiter to deal with arm printing, and double arm printing - is there a backprint too?

What is this shirt worth? I also haven't seen fake M&O tags...yet.

One I would keep an eye on and see what else comes up.

M&O Knits gave me a canned response and said they're sending the email to another division.

[zargosh]

That's a bummer about the reply from M&O. The history of these shirt businesses are so vague, somebody could do a good book about it--although maybe that would only appeal to you, me and a couple dozen other peeps.

The back of that shirt is classic cradle of filth. Huge text meant to offend, maybe. Not quite as hard hitting as this one:

Here's the reverse hit for the one we're talking about:

Looking up the pricing was interesting, too. I'm pretty sure Wyco had the one with the more vibrant colors listed for $700 or something very close to that, but now it's gone. Maybe someone was following this thread and snagged it, or maybe Wyco decided it wasn't kosher for some reason. The other one is running on Etsy for $475. There are also a bunch of short sleeve with the same front and back hit and copyright running between $330 and $550

When I was looking on Etsy for the price, I found a slightly different long sleeve with red and black lettering for the band name, and a different copyright layout priced at 1467.47...maybe that's a significant number, who knows.

And then I stumbled on Cradle of Filth's website, which led to the 21st century version where they updated the model with implants, a nose job, botox, and a sultry come hither look. Gotta keep up with the zeitgeist, I guess.

[jimmyj]

I don't even think this band makes music. Just offensive t-shirts. But yeah, looks like they are in the habit of reissues and redesigns. That most recent one doesn't even have any copyright details.