Defunkd

[Happy1]

A bit of history here.
The king of Showco shirts is Jason Sprinzen. We all know this. He purchased a Original 1973 Led Zeppelin shirt from Christie’s for 1625$. See link
https://antiquesroadshowinsider.wordpre ... -sprinzen/
here we have a 1972 shirt owned by Jason
http://www.ledzeppelin.com/photos/memor ... ntage-swag
The 1975 Shows were produced by Concerts West See link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_Zeppe ... _Tour_1975
Here are the Staff shirts See link
http://www.ledzeppelin.com/taxonomy/term/306?page=1
Do we see any black ones. No...
Can we get a response from Jason if these are real or Fake? See Link
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Led-Zeppelin-Sh ... SwCGVYB4LB
My vote is Fake

[maxvintage]

Hi Happy-

That's a pretty hefty charge to throw down. I have zero doubts on Wyco's shirt. It is absolutely legitimate.

Before moving too far ahead, I've got to first ask you how many former Showco roadies you've chatted with about their old shirts? Also, how many of the shirts have you seen in person, examined up close etc? Have you done anything outside of looking at pictures online?

There are a many of different variations of Showco shirts - even from the same tour. I did the interviews with Jason that were featured on the Defunkd blog a few years back. The variations are practically endless. No one on the planet knows more than he does about them and even he doesn't know of all the ones out there. The company didn't really keep records on that kind of thing and the original shirt maker is no longer with us.

Because I search ebay somewhat frequently, I also know that the seller Wyco bought it from is a former Showco roadie who sold several less desirable Showco shirts in the months/weeks before he listed the Led Zeppelin. I think the original owner still has a few other shirts as well.

In any event, I'll reach out to Jason and see if he cares to respond.

Best,

Max

[jimmyj]

I am by no means a Showco expert. Actually I think in my years selling vintage t-shirts I've only ever sold one, maybe. But I have noticed a variance in prints and colors - seems like a super diverse collection. Given Max's comments - I think it would be unfair to keep the title of this thread as is, as it goes beyond just this one t-shirt. I've not known Wyco to sell fakes.

[maxvintage]

In regards to Concerts West claim, yes they were the promoters for the tour. Showco was a sound company, not a concert promoter - big difference there.

[WyCo_Vintage]

Max pretty much said all that needs to be said in regards to the questions posed in this thread.

This particular Led Zeppelin shirt was purchased directly from a the original Showco member.

This ELO Showco came from the same person as well
http://wycovintage.com/product/1976-sho ... our-shirt/

The "King of Showco", Jason Sprinzen, is someone who I would call a friend, I am in contact with pretty regularly and if there was anything wrong with this shirt, he would be the first to let me know.

Thanks for the responses, Max and Jimmy, and I hope this helps answer your questions Happy1.

Happy holidays!

-Patrick

[Happy1]

Well,
As long as you want to add that ELO showco shirt to the mix.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Showco-Inc-Shir ... SwGIRXX6QZ
I Believe that one is also Fake.
Along with this one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1977-Lynyrd-Sky ... SwL7VWjU7L
If you are best buds with Jason have him chime in on this post.
To many years of fake sales does not make it right.
Have Jason chime in and say these are legit.
Simple right?

[Happy1]

Also 42 Showco shirts here. No ringers. Mostly spruce short sleeve and some baseball style ones.

[WyCo_Vintage]

If you have any questions, feel free to message Jason on facebook. In your obvious troll attempt, if you had any interest other than being malicious, you would have done so already. I know you haven't because I spoke to a Jason shortly after your initial posts. I have no interest in continuing to feed you.

[jimmyj]

Hey Happy -

Agreed - you can easily contact Jason - he's easy to reach here:

https://www.facebook.com/ShowcoTheBook/

After your first claim was addressed I think it's fair that this become your responsibility to prove - as you just shifted the focus to other tees.

Please get in touch with him and we'll pick things up should you get a direct quote from him that particular items are not legit.

[Happy1]

WyCoVintage
Is loaded with Fake shirts. Here is another...Please...
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/4910465 ... ?ref=hp_rv

100% Fake.....
Deadstock shirt printed with a old School print.....Just look at hit ebay and etsy site....Showco shirts are fake...Why should I contact him...Jason would of bought the lynard shirt if it was real...

[Happy1]

I will post a picture of my Showco shirts..

[WyCo_Vintage]

WyCoVintage
Is loaded with Fake shirts. Here is another...Please...
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/4910465 ... ?ref=hp_rv

100% Fake.....
Deadstock shirt printed with a old School print.....Just look at hit ebay and etsy site....Showco shirts are fake...Why should I contact him...Jason would of bought the lynard shirt if it was real...

Deadstock? Look at the size of that shirt, you really think that's the original size? Probably would fit you though, looks about the perfect size for a troll.

You really should reach out to Jason, he's very helpful and informative. After your initial post, Jason asked me what I wanted for the Zeppelin Showco. If Jason had any issue with my Showcos, without hesitation, he would let me know. That's a fact.

[WyCo_Vintage]

http://www.defunkd.com/blog/2012/02/14/ ... case-pt-v/

http://www.defunkd.com/blog/wp-content/ ... Shirts.jpg


Wonder what the second shirt on the bottom left corner is.......?

[jimmyj]

Happy1 lets go into 2017 in a positive note. Ive done my own investigation and found Wycos tees to be fine. And as he mentioned Jason himself inquired about purchasing. Love to see your tees please share in a separate thread lets leave this one in 2016.

[mfin433]

WyCo Vintage has some very good vintage shirts, however this is inexcusable for a reputable company. This Nirvana In Utero Tour Shirt is a reproduction. Wrong era tag and they are selling it for $805. Lol.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/482339591/ ... gallery_12

[WyCo_Vintage]

I'm pretty confident this shirt is from 1993 but would love to hear why you think it's not. I did some research and provided links below backing up the year this shirt was produced. I'll also let you in on some methodology here in hopes you don't go around saying damaging words due to your own misunderstandings.

First thing I do when trying to understand a tag that I don't understand, is I look for other tags and consistencies similar to the tag I'm looking for. Next step, look at hanes tags from this era. We all have seen how tags can move through into the next generation, hanes blue tags, late 80s FOTL showing up in late 90s, even champion blue bars showed up in the 80s. This particular hanes tag has shown up on 1994 Metallica reissues so I was familiar with it but still somewhere skeptical before I listed it. The logo, the H and the colors are very similar to other 90s tags I have seen previously. I do deep ebay searches, description 1993 hanes shirt, then go tag hunting. If I wonder if a shirt is authentic and need help figuring it out, I look for other shirts with the same graphics and see if it's more commonly available and what build of shirts it was printed upon. This will help in finding your more commonly printed shirts and reproductions as well. The shirt you mentioned is a 1993 Nirvana TOUR shirt. Next I would try to look up and find out if this print is readily available or has been listed previously. Being a tour shirt, there are going to be less versions of this shirt available so that means it's gonna be harder to find. I could not find any shirts, vintage or reproduced that line up with this shirts graphics.

Here are some great examples of 90s Hanes tags and a Grateful Dead from same time frame with same tag.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bud-Faubel-the- ... Sw9GhYZ~os

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Grateful-Dead-S ... Sw4GVYSZbs

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Primus-1993-Vin ... SwzaJX6TJx

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-Womens-Mel- ... Sw2xRYU15A


Let me know if you have any questions or need help with anything else!

-Patrick Klima
http://www.WyCoVintage.com

[FiftyFiftyMan]

As this awful 1993 Hanes TV commercial proves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caN_0eAlNYU), the swoosh through the H logo was already established by then. I used to assume it was a late 90's incarnation, likely because that design was used well into the 2000's. Wrong I was. Also, Hanes was already outsourcing some of their assembly, and even outright manufacture, out of the USA by 1993 (pre-NAFTA). Granted, I could not find anything online stating when Hanes began outsourcing to Haiti (I have seen "assembled in Mexico" and Jamaica tags from that era). Tags with "made of US fabric" removed became more common mid-late 90's, post NAFTA.

[timetraveltees]

I have no horse in this race obviously and not trying to stir the pot, and apologies if I'm speaking out of turn, but as a collector and seller myself, I'm a bit of a tag junkie and I do honestly believe the Nirvana shirt to be a later modern-ish reprint. The examples you had of double-tag Hanes shirts were later reprints, and in my experience the double tags in general are 1998/99 and later. The Jerry Garcia shirt I know my deadhead cousin bought in 1999 from a head shop (I remember it because I thought it was ridiculous and he wore it for the first time to my high school graduation), it's the same shirt and definitely had the same copyright date because he still has it and wears it occasionally but the tag is long gone. And like some of the later Metallica reissues with Hanes double tags or other tags, they maintain the old copyright date because they're using the same art. There's no hard and fast rule for this, but a lot of bands or merch companies have done this in the past and it caused confusion for lots of people. It even happens with Snoopy shirts on a 90s Artex or Jostens tag and saying "vintage 1964 Snoopy Shirt" or something because they used the 1964 copyright of Peanuts itself, rather than the print production year for some reason.

The hot rod shirt would appear to be a smoking gun as far as print date and tag match, but I would say it's more likely that the driver did that art and originally printed in 1993 and continued printing it for a long time after to sell at rallies and what not (very common in that world). In fact, just out of curiosity I Googled it and found that an automotive website is still selling shirts with this same exact design in sizes S-XXXL so it's definitely been in print recently. Can't make out the copyright date from the photo but it appears to be the same as the link to the one on ebay. Here's the shirt on this website: http://www.kramerauto.com/proddetail.asp?prod=z01-01

For the Jerry Garcia shirt there's a lot of them in circulation. And in my experience the Winterland copyrighted shirts from 1993-95 were for the most part printed with Winterland tags. The later reprints were Hanes or other brands, early-late 90s were the single tag Hanes made in the USA. The much later reprints (98/99-present) were always double tag Hanes or other brands, usually made elsewhere, or at the very least assembled in Mexico, Haiti, etc. Hanes definitely used that distinctive arrow logo in the mid-late 90s but the double tag for sure wouldn't have been around in 1993.

In my opinion this would be the timeframe for the Jerry printings:
Original 1993 Winterland Tag - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jerry-Garcia-Gr ... SwXAJYWAtm

Early-late 90s reprint - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Jerry-G ... Sw2xRYTK7R

1998/99-present reprint - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Grateful-Dead-S ... Sw4GVYSZbs

The Primus and Mel Tillis you're dead on about with the era matching the year on the shirt, but like I said those are single tag Hanes and made in the USA with no qualifiers. So those would have been early 90s for sure.

And that's why I think the Nirvana shirt in question isn't actually from 1993. This seems like a one-off modern day head shop bootleg reprint more than anything since there aren't any other matching examples in the wild. And the official tour shirts from that year have a slightly different front print and also have the back print with the cities, and the two that are listed now have a Delta tag and a Screen Stars Best tag which would be period correct. I could be wrong, feel free to correct me. Like I said, I hope you don't take offense to this but I've been reading this thread and I do feel the era is off for sure on the Nirvana one based on what I know from collecting for the last 20 years and selling on and off for a decade or so.

[WyCo_Vintage]

Thanks for your response. While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I want to point out the race car shirt you linked to, is not the same print or even same style of shirt, look at graphics and the pocket on the shirt. We have no real time stamp for Hanes shirts. There are many versions and as I previously mentioned, you see 80s tags show up with 90s graphics (I linked one below). We don't know when screen printers started using certain shirts because they printed on shirts they had access to from their suppliers. If the supplier had a bulk amount of black Hanes blue tags from the 80s, when his customers asked for black tees in 1992, those would be the first shipped out if that was the stock the supplier still had. This is why you see crossovers. I just want to say that if my intention was to be misleading, removing a label from this shirt would've achieved just that.

I moved the tag search on ebay up to 94 and found many more double tags on 1994 shirts and about 10 different Hanes tags in total from that year. Some coming from other countries and variations of 50/50, Heavyweight, and Beefy. I actually wondered if it might be a parking lot tee which would explain not seeing any copies. Under your hypothesis, there's no reason to print tour on a shirt that would've been made in the late 90s as there was no real demand for Nirvana at that time. You could buy any original Nirvana shirt around that time for under $20 so I don't see why someone would reprint. The traditional smiley graphic and dante's inferno are one color prints that would be easy to reproduce and are more widely accepted as the back print is not necessary and normally not included on the repops. I've NEVER seen another copy of this shirt.

Here are some more links for reference.

1994 double tag Travis Tritt Tour https://goo.gl/FLL34R

Really strange hanes tag goo.gl/clDFYE

Pitfall promo 1994 double tag goo.gl/p5Th9q

1997 hanes double tag goo.gl/XpGzkQ

1994 Biohazard winterland hanes long tag goo.gl/bFerm7

[WyCo_Vintage]

Here's more links as it only allowed 5 in a post

1994 celtics double tag https://goo.gl/Bv2Xyi

pack of 94 hanes shirt for logo reference (made in Jamaica) https://goo.gl/mK5ZF9

1994 woodstock with 80s hanes tag https://goo.gl/cbLFYc

1994 suns hanes double tag https://goo.gl/VoOygu

1994 tie dye double tag https://goo.gl/F1NLLx

[WyCo_Vintage]

And a few more

Vince Gill 1995 tour double tag https://goo.gl/LtgIvL

1997 pack of white tees https://goo.gl/RSryqz

another pack from 1997 https://goo.gl/GMBLZU

1996 Olympics shirt, double tag https://goo.gl/gLJZV0

[timetraveltees]

Thanks for the response. This stuff is genuinely fascinating and I learn a little more every day so I'm happy to discuss further. And I hope you don't take offense to my questioning you on this stuff. Obviously I wouldn't think you're trying to pull a fast one or pass something off as something that it's not on purpose. Like I said, I have no horse in this race, I don't deal in high end concert stuff anyway so we're not in competition with one another in a general sense so that's not my reason for jumping into the fray. I'm just trying to nail down why this one sends up such red flags for me and if I'm wrong and need to adjust my thinking on the matter.

I do stand corrected though on the double tag existing as early as 1994/95. I even found one in my own store so that's my bad. I've just always associated them with being much later, but I guess by that what I actually was thinking was the combination of double tag/non USA made. Because even the 1994 ones you linked that had double tags were all still made in the USA. And yeah of course there's always bizarre crossover of old blanks being used for printing things from many years later. I see high school graduation shirts in thrift stores all the time with Screen Stars white tags, and they're from the class of 2012 or whatever. So there's certainly a precedent for old stock being used by printers. My argument is that it doesn't go back the other way, though.

And in my trying to crack the code for this I'm wondering why a true 1993 double tag (and more specifically, one that isn't 100% USA-made) with undeniable provenance to that year is so hard to find. And I think maybe it could tie into NAFTA which went into effect January 1st, 1994. That seems to be the red letter date in history where the shift starts really going into effect. You begin to see more "Fabric made in USA, assembled in Mexico" at first. And then later, USA was taken out of the equation all together and they started making them all together elsewhere. And it also seems like it could be specific to the style of shirt where it was made and when the production locale shifted. For instance, those blanks are interesting. Now, I've seen packs of shirts or socks like that in stores to this day that have many years old copyright dates on the package but they're brand new, because the companies aren't really bound to update that as much as they are obligated to be correct about the country of manufacture. And also like I said, that single tag with the small Hanes in the upper left corner could have moved production elsewhere sooner than their other styles. Or it could have been produced later and the copyright on the packaging lagged behind. It's hard to say. So for the sake of this conversation, let's keep it to the styles that were produced as blanks for screen printing specifically.

For sure the long tag, Hanes Heavyweight, Beefy Tee were all being made all throughout the 90s and in the Beefy Tee case, much beyond. So that makes it super difficult to pin down what was being produced when, where and for how long. But if we just focus on the country of manufacture and specifically in regards to Hanes Beefy Tee, I think it makes more sense. Like the NAFTA thing in 94 which saw an uptick in t-shirts being assembled/manufactured outside the USA, there was also a couple of initiatives and bills that sent production out of the US and to these new countries. And this is the most compelling evidence for me for this tag and figuring out the production year of the blank. Here is the Wikipedia article about the Caribbean Basin Trade & Partnership Act, which allowed for duty free import of garments to the US that were produced in those countries provided that the fabric was sourced from yarns made in the US (hence Assembled in Haiti, Honduras, etc. but not Made In) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean ... ership_Act

You'll notice that three of the countries that benefitted from this bill which was signed into effect in October of 2000, are Haiti, Jamaica and Honduras. And that lines up with when, based on eBay searches by the year, you start to see more and more of these shirts being manufactured in those countries. It's not a perfect science because not everyone includes country in their listings but it's as close as we're going to get I think.

Search results for [year] Hanes Haiti shirt, removing clearly non-vintage shirts

1993-1996 - 0 results
1997 - 1 result (the three pack of blanks)
1998 - 1 result (unverified year on shirt, no picture of tag)
1999 - 1 result (but for a 2002 shirt)
2000 - 2 results (one made in Haiti, one assembled in Haiti)
2001 - a few results, most had no pictures of tags, but no more than 5 total.
2002 - 11 Made/Assembled in Haiti
2003 - 5 Made in Haiti
2004-2011 - 15-50 results, up until they go tag-less but are still producing in Haiti

Like I said, there's no perfect science to this and it's a lot of conjecture unless we get a definitive word from someone at Hanes for when they started making shirts in Haiti specifically. But given how these garment manufacturers generally moved their industry around tied into the various laws that were passed on free trade or duty free import/export, it's not difficult to surmise to some extent when these shifts took place. The Caribbean Basin Act was 2000, but they also passed something called HOPE around 2008 which seemed to further extended the benefit for Haiti to be able to not only assemble, but manufacture from all native elements and still get the duty free benefit. So I think this is probably why you start to see "Made in Haiti" a lot more after ~2008 after this bill passes since they were no longer obligated to source yarn from the US to assemble.

Check out this article about the Haiti production and the HOPE bill's effects, which goes into some detail and also has a quote from the vice president of government and trade relations for Hanes, which the article which was written in 2010 says "Hanes Brands, Inc., which has operated in Haiti for 10 years." Which lines up again with the Caribbean Basin Act being put in place in 2000 and Hanes shifting focus over there to reduce costs. http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0216/ ... uy-Haitian

This is all kinda complicated and confusing but I do think I've stumbled onto something that could potentially answer the question to as certain a degree as possible without speaking to someone from Hanes directly. And for sure again, I'm not accusing you of misrepresenting or knowingly claiming the shirt is something that it's not. We're all resellers, we have no idea where these shirts come from, we can use deductive reasoning and our experience and try to read the tea leaves, but we've all been wrong at one time or another. Or we find a tag on a shirt with a date on it that pre-dates any of the previously known examples, it happens all the time. But I do believe, based on what I've been able to find through eBay and Google searches and trade articles that Hanes didn't do much production on the Beefy Tee line out of the US pre-1994 at the earliest. And more specifically I can't find any compelling evidence that they were producing anything in Haiti before 1997, but really more likely 2000 when it comes to this particular line.

As to where the shirt came from, who knows. Could very well have been an art school screen printing project for someone and that's why there's no other examples out there because it was a one off. And the print quality isn't great in general so someone who was just learning would seem to make sense. Plus it's only two colors which is highly reduced from the original era's official print. So it definitely wasn't produced by someone with access to original vector art or anything like that, parking lot bootleg would be possible but again I think the Haiti issue calls that into question. Because in general those would have been printed on way cheaper blanks (Pakistan, etc), and I can't find any other examples of a Haiti shirt anywhere until you get to 4 years later, and 7 years later if we're looking for Beefy Tee specifically. It's a bit of a conundrum for me. I think the fact that neither of us have ever seen another of this lends credence to the possibility that it was something that was made for fun or for a project or as a test for someone that either had access to equipment or was learning the trade. I don't think it was created to trick anyone into thinking it was older than it was, because as you said, other prints would have been more convincing and easier to pull off. Plus removing the tag would have eliminated a lot of questions about the era of the print all together. But my best guess based on what I've come up with is that if the screen printing project hypothesis holds water, that it was done post-2000 but more likely post-2008 when full-on "Made in Haiti" tags became much more prevalent. But again, it's all a guess honestly, albeit a somewhat educated one to some extent.

In any case, let me know what you think about all of this, it's a lot to parse out. But I've enjoyed doing the research because I find it all fascinating and I hope you know that I respect what you do and know for sure that you're not knowingly selling bootlegs or repops. The guy who started this original thread is a joke and you summarily proved yourself to be 100% correct and upstanding with regard to the Showco shirts. So I hope you don't think I'm trying to do a "gotcha" on you. I just am genuinely interested in cracking this case, whether I'm right or wrong is irrelevant to me because there's nothing in it for me regardless. I'd just love for all of us to have a better understanding out of this somehow. Genuinely appreciate the response and happy to discuss further if you like. Thanks

- Mark

[WyCo_Vintage]

Good stuff Mark. I enjoy these types of discussions, we've all seen a lot of different things over the years. I've spent a good majority of my time on the 1970s and 1980s tees. I tried to not move too far into the 90s for this very reason. There are so many tag variants and things became so mass produced and reproduced, it's hard to keep track, kind of like smiley face nirvana's. The trade agreements definitely point to times in history where we can look back and say that's when these started coming out of those locations. I was looking through other listings, you can find Tultex and Oneita tags doing the assembled in Jamaica as far back as 1991 so even those trade agreement dates don't confirm when Hanes starting outsourcing.

I came across this hanes blue tag with Jamaica 1990.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mens-Vtg-1990-T ... Swo4pYgutA

This now makes me wonder about the El Salvador Giant tags you see on the 1994 Metallica repops and when those are actually from. I've avoided those for this reason.

[jimmyj]

Good eye. But I wonder if there was a pre-trade agreement loop hole - where as long as the garment/fabric was "made in USA" - it could be then be assembled, or "sewn" elsewhere.

[timetraveltees]

Yeah I think the pre-NAFTA stuff is a bit of a mixed bag. While 99% of what I find are US made, there doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule for anything I don't think, but there was probably some kind of incentive for them to assemble there. It could have been slightly cheaper than doing it in the US even without the duty-free benefit. Or maybe they were just farming out small chunks of production there to do a cost benefit analysis to test a more full roll out. But yeah the whole thing is interesting in that the mass production side of things and when we start to see lots of tags reflect the production shift, seem to line up almost exactly with the various trade agreements. That was something I had always assumed to be true but never really did much research on, but it appears to be undeniable at this point. Wish there was some sort of Hanes in house historian we could contact, and for other companies too. Seems a shame this info is so difficult to pin down exactly.